Can Airline Seating Get Any Worse? 'A New Form of Torture Chamber' – Slashdot

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Make Congess sit in a typical airline seating arrangement whenever it is in session, seatbelts required.
You’ll find the airline seating situation gets resolved fairly quickly.
Congress isn’t going to do anything that would be (a) highly uncomfortable, (b) highly irritating, or (c) good viewing by angry airline customers. Unless it can limit this arrangement to the party in opposition. They don’t mind how distressing it is for everyone else, because they don’t matter except at election time, people tend to forget discomfort quickly, and people still on planes aren’t going to be near ballot boxes.
This is the drawback of having two elected houses. Neither house has any compelling reason to care, their priority is to retain power, not serve others. Serving others is a losing proposition because you’re going to offend more people than you serve, which will always cost you votes and therefore cost you power. Pretending to be effective is the greatest vote-winner.
However, this is a debate about airline seating and not about the need to have one chamber be a Noocracy. Except that nothing will improve about airline seating until one chamber IS a Noocracy, unless someone very very rich is affected, and the very very rich are most unlikely to travel economy.
It’s not the two house system that is at fault, it’s the two party system.
In countries where governments are formed by coalitions of parties, there is a strong motivation to serve the public because everyone’s vote counts. It’s not like a two party system where a relatively small number of swing voters are all that matter.

In countries where governments are formed by coalitions of parties, there is a strong motivation to serve the public because everyone’s vote counts.
What? The most dysfunctional parliaments/legislatures in the world are the ones that are coalition-based. Italy is a prime example. You have so many small parties, often created for some wacky purpose or small constituency, that the end result is a squabbling rag-tag collection of parties that don’t even agree with their own coalition, let alone opposition coalitions. It’s also why multi-party coalition systems break down so often, leading to snap elections, because the Prime Minister tries to herd the prov
It’s also why multi-party coalition systems break down so often, leading to snap elections, because the Prime Minister tries to herd the proverbial cats and fails
Sounds like the very much two party system UK to me, to be honest. How many prime ministers did they have in the past 6 years? And how many parties have been in the government during the same timespan?
Thighland. Reminds me of being stuck in the middle seat of the aisle.
Only real solution would be to vote with your butt.
Really annoying for the airline would be if you enter, try to get seated and then declare that you can’t fit an and refuse to sit down and then demand to get off the aircraft. It would delay the flight since they will have to go through all the luggage loaded and remove your luggage or break security rules.
Make Congess sit in a typical airline
Or that orange guy. The rants would be a hoot. “The commie Dems are trying to torture me by putting me in this baby seat, believe me. Dems want tiny cars, and now tiny plane seats because it’s so-called green. Your legs will turn green and fall off.
When elected, and I WILL get elected, come hell or high ropes, I will pass a bill to make USA airlines the wonder of the world instead of a laughing stock, like trippy Joe made them, and make short migrants pay for them! Small seats are from small minds. I have a dream, Let Booty Ring! MASGA!”
That’s not fair. You leftists are always crapping on Trump but you know nothing. Our next president would never say that. … he would get distracted and change subject before coming up with a promise.
LOL he thinks Slashdot is “run by” people with mod points.
You have to arrange so that every row swaps parties. The person in front of you is in a competing party and when he leans back your only recourse is to take out your frustration by leaning back into the competing party member behind you. Also, alternate parties every other seat in the row also. Then when Senator Smallbladder needs to go he’ll be stepping on toes and cracking knees of friends and foes alike. Meanwhile the same rerun episode of Everybody Loves Raymond will play behind the speaker all month
…interrupted every other minute for very important announcements like that you can now purchase perfume or overpriced chocolate.
It’s not just very overweight people that don’t fit. It’s also people who are broad and/or tall. Even at my slimmest I’m still 23″ wide at the shoulders. Average seats are 17 wide now, which I fit into, but I’m occupying both arm rests.
Yes, especially now that Frontier has gone to 28″ seat pitch https://www.nerdwallet.com/article/travel/the-guide-to-frontier-airlines-stretch-seating [nerdwallet.com], when the current industry standard (which in turn of course is much reduced compared to 40 years ago) is 31″. Femurs are literally longer than the space allotted (including pelvis and kneecap) for those over 6′ tall. That’s even less than the 29″ on easyJet.https://www.airlinequality.com/info/seat-pitch-guide/ [airlinequality.com].
We need to quit promoting that all sizes are beautiful and “OK”.
Yeah, pretty much this [youtube.com] and this [youtube.com].
Indeed. I’m over both 6″ and 200lbs and can fit in the coach seats of any US carrier I’ve flown in the last couple of decades. I was somewhat uncomfortable once in a short-haul flight on China Air a few years back. But that’s it.
The elephant in the room (Well, the *other* elephant… not the fatass Americans.) is that narrow-body seats are NOT, in fact, narrower. The 737 is, for example, still the best-selling airliner in the world. It has 6-abrest seating in coach. You know why? It shares the same c
Yeah, chairs have always been about this narrow. But nowadays “recline” is like a token fraction of an inch, and the token cushion really hurts. I have short legs so the pitch doesn’t bother me too much, apart from the implication that recline is forbidden because of it.
The 737 is, for example, still the best-selling airliner in the world
The second best actually. It leads by a margin of about 500 airframes for delieveries, but considering that Boeing had a headstart of 20 years…
So while the airlines can certainly play games with the pitch, padding, recline, and amenities; the people complaining that the seats are “narrower” are full of crap.
A320 is actually also wider.
Not all overweight people are constantly eating pudding (or other sweets). Body shape and size is a complex matter. Of course eating too many calories will add pounds. However, you must look at genetics and hormonal factors.
I’m sorry…but I just don’t buy that.
It IS overeating, no exercise…poor lifestyle.
Recently, I’ve been watching YouTube videos showing average crowds in cities, country…high schools of people in the 70’s-80’s.
These are not staged, these are NOT actors…they are crowds of averag
let the EU set an min size and the US airlines will follow it as well.

let the EU set an min size and the US airlines will follow it as well.
That doesn’t follow logically. For airplanes that will never set foot in the EU the US airlines have no incentive to follow EU guidelines.
>> the US airlines have no incentive to follow EU guidelines
Free market, Baby.
Airlines often lease their aircraft to other airlines elsewhere hence that is not as clear-cut as you think it is.
Easy maybe, but not cheap. If the aircraft is wet leased, the seats aren’t changed. Hell, many airlines don’t even bother to change the seats if they buy a used airplane.
Sure, but how long do you think ’til the shitstorm about how the EU has seating that doesn’t make you sick and you can’t get enough legroom if you’re a midget?
Internet and Tiktok, baby.
In the EU you don’t even have the option for paying for a first class seat to avoid the misery; the seats are the same as coach.
There problem with that is the US needs a minimum size far more than the EU does.
Funny you should say. My employer’s policy:
“There is no requirement to select the absolute lowest fare.”
At least my employer’s policy was “book economy”.
This included anything counting as “economy”, including premium economy class…
The EU is looking at regulating seat size too, not least on safety grounds. Passengers have been injured.

These inhuman flying conditions is the direct result of optimizing for ticket price above all else.
Alternatively, flying conditions are dictated by passengers preferring low cost tickets above all else.
Airlines are in the business of making money by satisfying customer demands. As a passenger, I have options to pay more to get more space (first class, business class, exit rows, bulkhead seats, flying different airlines). Apparently the vast majority of passengers prefer lower cost tickets to more spacious seating. I don’t see why Congress should override that decision. If we really wanted more seat space

Buying cheapest flights is mandated by corporations and government for business travel
No they aren’t. In fact by company policy I’m not allowed to select the cheapest ticket option unless the flight is less than 2 hours. I have to take a premium seat, and above 4 hours I have to fly business.

The only remaining solution is to explicitly legislate
Why? You can’t legislate away cheap idiots being cheap and complaining about being cheap. Today they say boohoo legroom. Tomorrow they’ll say boohoo I can’t afford the ticket.
US Government requires purchase of refundable fare, coach class.
Those are cheap seats, but not cheap fares.

These inhuman flying conditions is the direct result of optimizing for ticket price above all else. Buying cheapest flights is mandated by corporations and government for business travel, selected for by consumers that rely on aggregation sites. The only remaining solution is to explicitly legislate or regulate acceptable minimums to stop on-going circling the drain.
If you have noticed the way some people dress nowadays when they fly you wonder if they just got out of bed or left the Jazzercize class. If they are that uncaring about how they present themselves in public what makes you think that they would want anything other than the cheepest fare possible that still allows them to sit down and breathe.
The USA could reintroduce regulated airfares and even more airline regulations; that existed back in the 1960s & 1970s as far as I know. Ticket prices were higher a

These inhuman flying conditions is the direct result of optimizing for ticket price above all else. Buying cheapest flights is mandated by corporations and government for business travel, selected for by consumers that rely on aggregation sites. The only remaining solution is to explicitly legislate or regulate acceptable minimums to stop on-going circling the drain.
Did you just suggest government-grade intervention because some CxO is too fucking cheap to upgrade their revenue-generating employees to that thing they ironically sell as business class?
Your “only” remaining solution is more how we fucking got here. Arguments this ignorant will make slavery legal again before Greed N. Corruption representing the executive class agrees to give up a fucking dime in bone-us compensation.
Go with bench style seating, like older pickups have. No arm rests in the middle. No individual seats.
Helps if you want to lie down across the seat when you have the row to yourself too.
If I can’t drive there, I am not going. It is simple really. Haven’t been on a plane since the mid 90’s and don’t plan on getting on or in one again.
Don’t get me wrong, I love airplanes and helicopters and blimps and anything that flies. I flew model airplanes when I was younger and have the same birth date(well, except for the year) as the first flight by Orville & Wilbur.
Good luck driving to Europe or Southeast Asia from the US…. I fly there all the time… and it is absolutely brutal. It is absolutely soul crushing.
I like one of the other commenters ideas, make bench seating.
Bench seating sounds like a nightmare, and absolute hell on a long haul flight. The armrest is the only thing I’ve really got where I can draw a line on my space. I flew premium economy (i.e. extra space and more sturdy seats) on Virgin from Shanghai to London a few years ago (something like 11 hours or more), and the women in the seat next to me still managed to prevent me sleeping with all her fidgeting; a shared bench would be horrible.

Good luck driving to Europe or Southeast Asia from the US…. I fly there all the time… and it is absolutely brutal. It is absolutely soul crushing.
Lifehack: Be rich and fly business class.
I’m joking, of course. Sort of. The reason airline seats are so small is because airline tickets are so cheap, and the reason airline tickets are so cheap is because airline seats are so small.
The airlines aren’t trying to abuse you, they’re trying to give you what you want: Travel at a rock-bottom price. If you don’t think airfare is cheap it’s because you haven’t looked into the alternatives, and also haven’t looked into what it costs to operate an airline. Ai
Don’t Drive. Don’t Fly.
Use remote meetings.

If I can’t drive there, I am not going. It is simple really.
That’s a way of saying you’re proud to be closed minded and not want to ever experience anything new.
Wow. I didn’t know that. I thought it was because I don’t want to die in an aluminum tube splattered all over the ground.

If I can’t drive there, I am not going. It is simple really. Haven’t been on a plane since the mid 90’s and don’t plan on getting on or in one again.
Don’t get me wrong, I love airplanes and helicopters and blimps and anything that flies. I flew model airplanes when I was younger and have the same birth date(well, except for the year) as the first flight by Orville & Wilbur.
And yet if every company followed your lead, there’d be a whole lot more dead employees on the wrong side of NTHSA statistics.
You’re gonna have to do better than a cool birthday.
If every company followed my lead then they wouldn’t be greedy cocksuckers.
.. it can get worse [marymount.edu]. Don’t give the airlines any ideas.
My gripe is with the shape of the seat, how it curves so that I’m always hunched over. Were the seats designed by someone with severe scoliosis? Why does the shape have to be uncomfortable immediately when I sit in it? I assume it’s shaped that way to better survive a crash, which if true makes me wonder why we’re uncomfortable 99.99999% of the time flying in order to better accomodate the chance that might happen 0.000001% of the time. I’d rather take my chances during the crash and have a comfortable seat
My gripe is with the shape of the seat, how it curves so that I’m always hunched over.
Agreed, the headrest gives me neck pains.
Though my biggest problem is the lack of leg room.
They once floated an idea of a standing ‘seat’ to pack more passengers in their planes. I think safety regulation saw the end to that.
At one time, travel itself was part of the experience that people sought. By ship, train or plane, people could travel in relative comfort while enjoying top tier service. It’s no surprise that many people only travels a few times in their lives, if at all.
Now air travel is a commodity. It’s a necessary step in getting from point A to point B. And people don’t want to spend too much on it, and successful airlines have shifted to a bulk model with thin margins and high volume. If you feel like your being packed into a sardine can. Well, there’s a reason sardine producers try not to waste space, because a metal can was a relatively expensive component of manufacture yet was not of any value to the consumer being immediately discarded after consumption of the contents. It’s not just a metaphor, it’s convergent evolution of businesses solving the same basic challenges.
This. So much this. People who complain about seat space are fundamentally people who buy the cheapest possible thing and then complain about the aspects of it which make it cheap.
Better seats are available. Heck whole different and better class of service is available. And before you complain about how expensive it is, it’s worth noting that a business class airfare is about the same as an inflation adjusted economy ticket from the early 90s / late 80s. The difference is, the comfort and service is sooo mu
Now air travel is a commodity. It’s a necessary step in getting from point A to point B.
I just want to push back on this a bit. I would bet that most airline travellers strictly speaking either don’t need to fly, or more commonly simply don’t need to actually travel wherever they’re going. You can immediately rule out vacations as those are unnecessary by definition. Almost all business meetings could be done virtually. You don’t have to go home for the holidays (and you could just choose a school or
I’m over 6”. I fit in the seats just fine . . .
I’m under 6′. The biggest problem for me is the lack of legroom. Large people sitting next to me only makes that a little worse.
Years ago I got stuck with an obese person sitting next to me, he ‘spilled’ into my seat. I spent 6 hours crammed against the window. When I got off I had a large oval bruise on my leg that took almost a week to go away. Never again. I now travel with a legal size clipboard in my backpack. If this happens again it’s getting jammed in-between the seats and the armrest will remain down. I’m 5’8″ 198lbs and have no problem with the seat sizes and primarily fly United and always book isle or window (perferred).
I like that idea, but hell… The seats themselves need to have some sort of built-in rigid impermeable barrier to prevent theft of space.

“They are built for people from the ’40s and ’50s. They cannot remotely accommodate a person…”
Oh FFS, stop making Grandma sound like a fucking alien already so you can feel good about your eating habits. It’s disrespectful and pathetic.
What airplanes do not have any room for, are the endless excuses to ignore the obesity epidemic, which trying to portray customers flying in the ’40s and ’50s as some kind of different species tends to exemplify just how ridiculous the excuses have become.
A person slightly over 6′ tall still represents less than 5% of the entire US population today. No, we haven’t c
Back in the day I used to fly nearly every week for work. Thankfully I am now off that treadmill. From what I have seen and heard, air travel is even worse now than when I flew. Back then it was common to have the middle seat empty. Getting upgraded to Business class was quite common for frequent flyers like myself. Then the airlines started giving status as giveaways for credit cards or just allowed people to outright purchase top tier status. That spelled the end of upgrades unless you were a very, very f
> The success of low cost airlines like Southwest and
> Spirit marked the end of quality air travel.
Only for the US carriers. Overseas it is still quite possible to find a pleasant air travel experience. I look forward to the day when I can say: “If Singapore, ANA, JAL, Cathay Pacific, or Korean doesn’t go there; then neither do I.”
Yes good point. I forgot to separate international flights from domestic. World of difference. Flying international first class is incredible.
My wife and I cashed in a bunch of air miles for a once in a lifetime 1st class flight on Singapore Airlines for a trip to the Far East. Oh my God! True luxury every step of the way. Domestic airlines should be ashamed at the level of service they provide compared to the long haul international flights.
Carny airlines we do the minimum safety sizing and pass the saving on to you!
https://www.travelandleisure.c… [travelandleisure.com]
Now here is something regulation should help with, transparency … mandate that all advertising and sales show the seat width and leg room (also on third party websites operating commercially). People pay it more attention when they don’t have to hunt for the information.
Two seconds on seatguru is not “hunting” for information. And airlines do not hide the fact that they offer larger seats as well. In fact they flash it in your face at multiple points during the checkin.
– Select your service, cattle, flex+ with larger more comfortable seats with extra legroom, or business, with even larger and more comfortable seats.
*click no*
– Select your seat, we offer a set of premium sets with larger and more comfortable with extra legroom option.
*click no*
– For just 10000 miles points
That would be the case… were it not for the fact that literally every airline offers multiple classes of seating with different legroom options. Capitalism hasn’t failed here. People just bought the cheapest shit and are moaning about not getting the premium service they chose voluntarily not to pick.
Shit I kid you not on my last flight 2 weeks ago I had the choice of 4, FOUR different sized seats, ALL IN ECONOMY. I’d have the choice of 6 if I were considering a business or first class ticket.
Some things like airplane maintenance schedules, pilot hours, etc are not be optional for airlines to compete on. Penalties for violations are so steep that violations are very rare.
Seat size and comfort needs to be put in the same category. You should have a legal right to be able to sit without having to fold your femurs or stow your shoulders in the overhead bin. Airlines need to be required to provide reasonable accommodations for at least a +2 or +3 sigma person. I’m only 5’9″, which is the USA ave
There’s no problem with legroom on any flights. Airlines offer you whatever you want, be that ultra tight and ultra cheap, seats with extra legroom, seats big enough that someone can walk past you (emergency exit row) or seats big enough for you to lie flat in (business class).
Stop pretending like you’re not benefitting from cheap tickets due to the reduced legroom. If you want more legroom PAY FOR IT. If you want legroom like you used to have, expect to PAY THE PRICE YOU USED TO PAY.
Flying has never been cheaper, and that seems to have made it accessible to an entire generation of over entitled twats.

There’s no problem with legroom on any flights. Airlines offer you whatever you want, be that ultra tight and ultra cheap, seats with extra legroom, seats big enough that someone can walk past you (emergency exit row) or seats big enough for you to lie flat in (business class).
Sure if price is not a consideration the airlines are happy to offer you luxury priced seats to accommodate your basic needs. If you want something usable priced a reasonable increment, forget it. I once computed the cost per inch of seat pitch for these extra four inches (1 usable) on Delta’s premium economy. If applied to the normal economy fare, the price would more than double. And that was five years ago. I’m sure it is worse now.
The trend is to make the base fair so unusable that everyone must bu
And width is the worst. I’m tall, but shoulder room is the worst thing and leads to the terrible neck and back pain. There is no upgrade short of 1st on most airlines that gets you an extra 2″ wide. I’ll take small legroom, but let me pay 30% more for a little more elbow room

If you want something usable priced a reasonable increment, forget it.
Except that is horseshit.
Firstly a business class flight now costs less than an economy class ticket from the 80s and 90s.
Secondly many airlines offer a HUGE variety of different options including reasonable increments. My last flight 2 weeks offered 4, FOUR different options for seat sizes in economy class ranging from around $10 to $60 depending if you were in Economy, Economy+, Exit row, OneWorld Club (whatever the fuck that is, but suffice to say it said “more leg room” on the seat selector). And that’s

If you want something usable priced a reasonable increment, forget it.
Except that is horseshit.
Firstly a business class flight now costs less than an economy class ticket from the 80s and 90s.
Citation please.
I was flying in the mid 90’s. Current economy flights between the West coast and mid-west are about 3-4x what they were back then. Granted, there is inflation but up until recently it was pretty low. There is no way in hell business class is cheaper than economy back then and economy seats were much spacious then. If you back far enough into the 80’s you get into the pre-deregulation era which is a different world but the packed in like sardines trend is long past that point.
They’re not a silver bullet, but I think this is a good place for a standards body (and not Congress). Something along the lines of, minimum dimensions, maybe padding, etc. I’m certain there is already standards around crash and fire criteria, so dimensions can be next, maybe even some version of padding or ‘softness / springiness’…I’m sure those standards exist somewhere.
And have it geared towards human beings (statistically speaking) so that the bare minimum is ‘something’ and the airlines (RyanAir.
When traveling, especially on shorter distances, comfort tends to be low on my list of requirements, most notably, it comes after price. I can sit uncomfortably for a couple of hours if it saves me a few bucks. And I am far from the only one, in fact, most people I know are like me, and airlines delivered: flying is uncomfortable and cheap. For the few who care more about comfort than price, there is business class.
Do I want to pay more for more comfortable seating? Absolutely not, I am happy with the situa
Part of the problem is that the airlines have been monetizing everything they can get away with. Want to check a bag? That’ll be $150. Want to make sure it gets to where you are going? That’ll be $250. Want to board early in order to increase your chances of getting an overhead bin to save money and hassle of checking a bag? That’ll be $350. But you’ll be in line behind all those special-treatment demographic groups. Mythbusters long ago optimized the boarding process but the airlines can’t make any
I (male) have a 32-inch waist, well below the 50th percentile. I still hit both sides on the narrowest airplane seats. Should I have my hip bones ground down?
Did you miss where I said “narrowest”? And did you misread “hit both sides” as “squeezed in”?
I don’t have trouble either. My point was that sometimes it comes close.

I’m always having to accommodate by giving up an armrest that should be mine
What do you mean the armrest should be yours? There’s one arm rest between you and the seat next to you. It should either be shared (nearly impossible), or not used at all. Now if you’re talking about gibing up an armrest by swinging it up because they’re too fat, that’s another thing. I’m fat, but I would NEVER ask someone I didn’t know who was sitting next to me if we could raise the armrest. Furthermore, I sit cross-armed the whole flight since I’m broad-shouldered as well to make sure my arms don’t
Anything less than six hours drive should be a train ride (it’ll be a four hour high speed train ride). Four hours on a high speed train is about the point where I think of flying instead.
The US has infrequent (less than several times a day) short/medium-haul passenger rail service outside of the Northeast and a few other areas. If you are going big-city to big-city and you aren’t in an area with frequent inter-city train service, a bus or a car is almost always a better option.

it’s kind of pointless to fly anywhere within a 2-3 hour driving distance
Wait what? You flew somewhere you could drive in 2-3 hours? Even before the TSA, WTF was wrong with you?
That’s what premium economy is meant to be. In reality premium economy is absolutely identical to economy with a higher seat price.

With the current obesity rates in the US around 42% and expected to rise to 50% in a decade or so, the problem will get much worse.
I guess we’ll just have to wait around for that scientific breakthrough that gives humans the secret to losing weight. Can’t believe we haven’t figured that one out ye, oh wait.

Given the long timeframes for making new law regulating the seat sizes, and the even longer timeframe for implementation, I am not optimistic that we will get relief anytime soon.
We’ve gone from Personal Responsibility to Too Fat To Fail, in a matter of a generation. Yes. I’m certain the right answer is….larger seats. /s
You do realize that Amtrak is not run by people that understand how to run a railroad, much less a passenger railroad.
Regional train services in the US are at the mercy of the freight railroads for access to tracks. Congress designed it that way when they provided a way for freight railroads to exit their money-losing (yes, freight charges were subsidising passenger service back then) passenger operations; ATSF saw it’s passenger trains as a form of advertisement for their freight services, not the other wa
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